Aug. 11, 2025
Unlearning The Gospel Music Industry Pt. 2
Send us a text Worship leader Darnell Moore unpacks the tension between following industry strategies and Spirit-led ministry in gospel music and church leadership. • The challenge of creating sustainable ministry while remaining faithful to God's leading • Using the metaphor of an exercise ball versus a lazy boy recliner to illustrate the tension between stability and Spirit-led flexibility • What happens when God asks us to abandon proven strategies and follow His unexpected leading • The ...
Worship leader Darnell Moore unpacks the tension between following industry strategies and Spirit-led ministry in gospel music and church leadership.
• The challenge of creating sustainable ministry while remaining faithful to God's leading
• Using the metaphor of an exercise ball versus a lazy boy recliner to illustrate the tension between stability and Spirit-led flexibility
• What happens when God asks us to abandon proven strategies and follow His unexpected leading
• The dangers of discussing spiritual matters without context in today's social media environment
• Learning from King David's example of pointing people to God rather than building personal platforms
• The warning signs of measuring ministry success by followers, finances, and influence
• How true worship means sacrificing personal gain and pointing people back to God
• When God asks us to willingly give back what He first gave us
We're dropping a new series next week—stay tuned as we continue to unlearn together so we can experience more freedom!
00:00 - Introducing Unlearning Gospel Music Industry
04:29 - The Tension Between Industry and Faith
12:09 - Exercise Ball vs. Lazy Boy Mentality
21:10 - Reading Social Media Comments
29:43 - The Platform's Original Purpose
33:30 - David's Example for Worship Leaders
40:26 - Final Reflections on True Worship
WEBVTT
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Welcome back everyone.
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Now let's dive back into conversation with Darnell about unlearning gospel music industry.
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So I'm going to go in this direction a little bit and just talk about this idea of industry, and I think this is a conversation not just for like music and Christian music, but also for the church, even like um.
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When I look at it, I'm trying to think of the best way to say it, because this, I'm gonna say this and that doesn't mean that I'm like against it, but I it's hard.
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For me it's there is to when we, as believers, take something and create an industry that fits into the world system for lack of a better term and it's producing sustainable resources to continue to do what it is we want it to do.
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There is a certain pathway to that.
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Like, there is a, there are formulas, there are, you know, particular things that work, and then there is the uh pressure, not just formulas to make industry work, but when you, when industry works, people's lives are attached to that.
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Right, you just said you make money from music.
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Right, that's not just because that's not by happenstance, you are thoughtful in how that happens.
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Right, and how that happens it's not just a hobby, it's not just like music for me right now is a hobby, like, if I get to do an opportunity, sure, I'd love to.
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I might get a little bit of a check, but it is not something I'm thinking about on a regular basis.
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You know so, for, you know for and then for, even for pastors, right, you're on staff.
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The church has to generate income in order to continue to pay, and how do churches do that?
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What are the strategies that are that where they're able to take advantage of um, uh, of different, different things that they know work for industry, right, there is a.
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I think that that is a piece of this conversation that is difficult for um, a piece of this conversation that is difficult for let me say it like this, that I think we do need to unlearn on some level is to say that there there are elements of what works for other other, the other people outside of the Christian world, that they that have outside of the Christian world, that they that have that has been um effective.
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That we take and say we're going to do this too, right, for the glory of God, right For the good of people, all that, all that stuff.
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Maybe the motive is, but the strategies are what they are, um, and, at the same time, it's very easy to get caught up in that, right, um, I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on the industry of worship, because that that is.
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I think that also when, when we think about the, the, the podcast when I heard it, I heard him particularly speaking about mostly 90% of the conversation was about the industry, the strategy and, like we kind of acknowledged in the beginning of the conversation, we, that's valid, like he's not wrong about it, he's he's done his homework and he's gone about it in a way that is successful.
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I, I just I'm curious as to how, how, how you handle the, the, the possible tension between playing in an industry and doing what it is that maybe going against the grain at moments because you're like, hey, we gotta, we gotta move in this direction because this is what I feel called to do, um, but also understanding that the reality is that the, the strategies of the industry, is what keeps it, keeps it sustainable for you and for other people like that.
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That's, that's real.
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So, like hey, what are your thoughts on that?
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How do you think about that?
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That's, that's real.
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So, like hey, what are your thoughts on that?
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How?
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do you think about that?
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So there are things that are good, but at times they're not, and so I look at following God.
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I often use this illustration like a exercise ball versus exercise ball versus a lazy boy.
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And so in the lazy boy you sit.
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In the lazy boy, boom, you're comfortable.
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It's holding you up.
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Good unsteadiness that you have to really engage your core in order to find some sense of stability, but it'll never be a lazy boy.
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Now, if you sit there long enough, your core is going to be strengthened and now you can sit there and you won't shake it as much, but you'll never be sitting in a lace board.
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Ok, yeah, so I think.
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I think for me it's the same.
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There are strategies, there's all of these things that we can employ, but God has the right To tear all that up and say go this way.
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And so, depending on who is leading you, can you lay down the strategies of the world or whatever, and follow God at this moment.
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We see it in First Chronicles, second Chronicles.
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There it is when King Jehoshaphat and all of these armies were coming against Israel, and so strategy says that the army should go first, but a word of the Lord came and said there's no need for you to fight in this battle, for the battle is not yours, it's the Lord's.
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And so, although strategy says that the army should go first.
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The Lord said send Judah first.
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What?
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We're singing the singers first.
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That don't make no sense.
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Like singers can't fight, I want you to send the singers first and I want them to sing Psalms 136.
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Oh, give thanks unto the Lord, for he is good, and his mercy, and do it forever to the God who's done all of these great things for his mercy and do us forever.
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And the Bible says as they sung and as they marched toward the armies, the armies got so confused that they turned on each other and started killing each other.
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When they actually got to the bottom, everybody was dead and all they did was pick up the swords.
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You can't get that with just industry talk.
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Wow, yeah, yeah.
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You have to be led by the spirit.
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So we use the industry, we use all of the technological and whatever all that stuff, the lights and the cameras.
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That's all great.
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I think it's all good and all great for its place.
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But can God speak to you in a moment and say I know this was praying, but I don't want you to do that.
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I want you to do this Like every time I've seen God move in amazing ways, it was always something that happened in a moment where God shifted something.
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And if you're so, strategy, and you're so image, and you're so, what are people going to think?
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Like, if that's what's driving you, you're not going to really be able to follow God, because worship, at its core, is a sacrifice of you.
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That's what it is, and so if you're going to be a worship leader in the industry or in the church, there has to be a sacrifice of you somewhere.
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You can't always be the one that's winning and looking good Like.
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God will have you do some things that don't that to the world it's like why did they do that?
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Or why did they turn that down?
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That to the world it's like well, what if they do that?
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Why did they turn that down?
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Because God told me to.
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That's why I know I could have made a lot of money, but God said no, don't do that.
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Yeah, you know what, even in the episode he used that example with Travis Green.
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It was like he said he was like man know you get, he said this how much I'm supposed to make you know?
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And that like, and so I think that's you know, it's a good example.
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I um all right, so I took some screenshots of some of the comments.
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Okay, underneath the uh, underneath the episode.
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Okay, I'm gonna uh, I'm gonna read some of them.
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Let's see where am I all right, because after I watched it the second time, I was like I read the comments first time.
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I'm curious, um as to how people this is something that I, I personally struggle with sometimes um with social media and spiritual conversations, because um this and I this.
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The first time it hit me was years ago and um, with uh, one of the when, when the kojic conference was being streamed, and um I, there was the I'm not gay, no more thing Right.
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And it just set it set me off because I was like I, I I could not help but ask the question why would?
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Why would you make that public?
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Because there's so little understanding by people who are going to watch this?
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You're setting yourself up for failure because you can't respond to it.
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You cannot.
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There's no response, absolutely and if somebody who has no context of the church, no context of any of this, I mean I don't care what the conversation was, he could have said anything, I don't care what he said.
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I mean I don't care what the conversation was, he could have said anything, I don't care what he said.
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The idea of an altar call, the idea of all the prayers, the idea of the shouting and all this stuff, people don't get that.
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They don't get it.
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There's no.
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And so to me, you kind of damage, you run the risk of I'm not going to say it automatically happens, but you run the risk of damaging your witness by doing it.
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So that's the first time.
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It kind of like just rubbed me the wrong way, right, but but, um, and that was a while back, and since then it ain't got.
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It's just gotten more.
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We just the doors have just been open and it's just like, oh man, so um, I, I, I, I don't like that, like I struggle with that.
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When we have conversations with the world that are really need, you need to have a particular context to understand what that, what it is right, you need to have a certain level of maturity, a certain level of spiritual commitment, all that stuff, right?
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So, anyway, when I look at comments, I'm always reading it from that perspective.
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You got all these different people commenting on stuff, um, and so there's I'm gonna read a couple of comments.
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I want you to just give me your immediate reaction to some of them, okay, um, let's see here somebody said what I've learned is that you can say and sprinkle God's name in any convo and it still doesn't mean you have a relationship with God.
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Okay, I mean, that's true.
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That's true.
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Um, all right.
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So that's that's one thing somebody said.
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Somebody else said from a business perspective, this was genius.
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From a spiritual perspective, this is dangerous yeah, yeah, I would have to agree um wholeheartedly that, yeah, that was that was.
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That was actually my takeaway, I feel like that sums up some of what you were not sums up, but you know what I mean.
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I feel like that captures what it is that you were saying.
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I will say this when I hear that, though this is just me from a spiritual perspective, that this is dangerous, I don't necessarily disagree again.
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I think that even that statement because, it's got to be unpacked.
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It's got to be unpacked because there are people who are going to read this.
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I mean, this isn't just going to church people Um, this isn't like it's just going to everybody and people are going to read this and most people will read this stuff and not comment.
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I've read them.
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I ain't commented, you know, um, and I I it it.
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It bothers me because people will take that phrase and take that comment and then make large philosophies on the church, large philosophies on people who call themselves Jesus followers, who believe in God.
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And I don't always know that that's wise, like you know, but I don't, but I don't know how to, I don't know what you do with it, because it's like, again, you don't want to isolate yourself from society.
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There is a, there is an event.
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You need, we need to be in the world.
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I mean, that's important.
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You can't just be, you know, I can't.
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The phrase, what is it?
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No, so heavenly bound, you ain't no earthly good.
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Right you can't be that way.
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That's not that's.
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I don't think that's how Jesus called for us to be.
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At the same time, though, what does discernment look like?
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What does wisdom look like, as to how we engage with things and engage in conversations that need to be had, but maybe not in public?
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I don't know, and I know, that's probably.
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Yeah, that's just social media, man, it is.
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It's that love hate with social media because it is people's in most cases, it's people's best picture, it's people's best videos, and so that causes some tension with that.
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And then it gives voice to everybody the learned, the unlearned, so everybody has a voice now to be able to share a time in.
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And it's these little, it's these little nuggets, it's these little one minute videos and people, like you said, feel their whole life off of this one little video or phrase or whatever.
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They're being pastored by a video, they're being mentored by a little video, they're being mentored by a 60 second video and so like.
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There's all of these gaps where there's all of this ignorance, um, but it happens every day, all day long.
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So that's why discipleship and what you're actually doing with this podcast, man, is so important.
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It's important to to infuse, give another option for what's going on in these spaces and not just removing ourselves from it.
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Jesus hung out with sinners.
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He was called a friend of sinners.
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Yeah, but he was.
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He hung out with them to show them something different, not to become them Correct, and I think that's the difference, yeah, and God calls some of us to those spaces and then some of us run over there and God didn't call you to do it, because if God calls you, he'll give you the grace to sustain in those spaces, but if he didn't call you over there, now you're just over there and now we, like Junior, what you doing?
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You over there, hitting the bus, yeah, yeah, it was like you know, when Jesus hung out with the sinners.
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Oh bro, wait, wait, wait no, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, you know, I think you're right and, um, I think you're right, and again, that that understanding, understanding where your place is in, that is crucial, like you have to know, and I just it's just sometimes thinking through it.
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So, okay, here's another, here's another.
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Make sure, I'm sorry.
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Okay, is this the right comment?
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Let me make sure I like this comment.
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Hold on, um, so I'm gonna read this.
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Alright, this is another comment.
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Guys like this are the reason why the gospel industry is the way it is.
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It's about profit more than more than putting butts in the kingdom.
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I promise you, if gospel artists focused on what the father wants out of their music, he will make them well off financially, but that's not their heart.
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You, if gospel artists focused on what the father wants out of their music, he will make them well off financially, but that's not their heart.
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That's what I did yes, not that like, but that but that is at that.
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I think that's telling about what people think, that this is Even salvation, even Christianity.
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They think that this is a thing that my life is rough.
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It is Dre being bullied and he goes to Mr Hung and he says teach me karate.
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And Mr Hung is trying to teach him life principles, to change his life.
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And he's like I don't want all that.
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I just want my situation to change.
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But what Mr Hung is saying is, if I only give you enough to change your situation and your life don't change, you're going to be back in the situation.
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That's correct.
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And so God is trying to get us to change our life and we are trying to get our bills paid and we are trying to come up and we're trying to.
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You know, we're looking on social media and seeing the fame and seeing all the glory and that's what we want instead of wanting God, and God's like man if you get me, I'll be enough and whatever it is that I have planned for you.
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Yes, I will prosper you, but that looks different.
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That looks different Christian to Christian, situation to situation.
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Yes, it's like that's not a standardized prosperity $10 million for all of the Christians.
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No, that's not how.
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It's not how that works, like that's not God's.
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God's not measure, that's not his measurement of success.
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And but I get.
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I get what he's.
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I understand where he's coming from where the person who's coming is coming from.
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It's like, you know, if we do, if we just focus on the Lord, he'll give us.
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You know, he'll give you the I mean, he didn't say this the desires of your heart.
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You know that kind of thing.
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People say that, right, when you focus on God, you know, um, you know, seek ye first the kingdom and all these things will be added, and we interpret all these things as millions of dollars, right, and all those, these, these ways that we have, that we have interpreted scripture and the principles of God that really tap into what we want, and then we take that and run with it.
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And then we take that and run with it.
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And so, again, this type of conversation to me just brings out.
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It's a great opportunity to have a needed conversation to unravel some of the ways that we've been thinking right, um, and and to challenge what our expectations are, as we are kind of navigating this world, um, and navigating success, like what, what, what are those?
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What are those expectations?
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How should I, how do I deal with, like you were saying, like I have these opportunities, um, how do I make that decision to give some away and to keep some right, um, knowing where I could be if I, if I, if I, if I took them all or whatever.
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Uh, that that's, this is.
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This is healthy, um, and you know when you said something it ain't healthy to be discipled by, and so I think that one of the other things that concerns me about these types of conversations is that, on some degree, we focus on the wrong thing.
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I mean, again, I think it's I.
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I am absolutely fascinated with business in general, like I love.
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I love business and strategy.
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I am going to lean in that direction.
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I and I have to fight myself, honestly, to be more spiritually minded when it comes to certain things and that and that's.
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I'm grateful for the community that I have that helps me to do that.
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I'm grateful for the community that I have that helps me to do that.
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But that is, I know that and I know where my bent is, and I think it's important.
00:21:48.298 --> 00:22:01.352
I think it's important that we have people that are wired certain ways, but I just I love the way you have really unpacked that.
00:22:01.352 --> 00:22:06.194
It's not.
00:22:06.194 --> 00:22:06.797
It's neither one is like.
00:22:06.797 --> 00:22:07.357
Both are necessary.
00:22:07.357 --> 00:22:08.160
It's a question of which is leading you.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.683
Um, which one is the one that's going?
00:22:09.683 --> 00:22:11.675
Which one are you paying more attention to.
00:22:11.675 --> 00:22:13.941
Which one are you feeding more Um?
00:22:13.941 --> 00:22:22.285
And that I think those are questions that we need to answer, as opposed to criticizing what he's saying.
00:22:23.688 --> 00:22:32.006
Like, I think that people sometimes, like the, there's a spiritual arrogance that could come across in a lot of these comments that I'm reading.
00:22:32.006 --> 00:22:37.980
That is like also, there's a lot of um, not even misinterpretation.
00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:43.359
Like you're like, uh, a miss um, you've just missed it.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:45.215
You, you've missed what he's saying.
00:22:45.215 --> 00:22:49.644
Like he's not, he's not saying what you think he's saying.
00:22:49.644 --> 00:22:57.817
You, there are ways, there are things that you're hearing and you're filtering it through something that makes you interpret it that way.
00:22:57.817 --> 00:23:00.788
Like no, that ain't what the dude is saying.
00:23:00.788 --> 00:23:11.638
Now, you don't have to like how he's saying it, but let's not, let's not, let's not say what he ain't saying, like that's you know um there, uh, and so I think I think that's important.
00:23:11.638 --> 00:23:12.039
I will.
00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.717
This is the other aspect and actually, um, producer joy and I talked about this when we first talked about it.
00:23:17.717 --> 00:23:18.696
Right, okay.
00:23:18.877 --> 00:23:21.740
I think there's also an onus right, and we'll talk about this.
00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:28.846
It's an onus on the interviewer and the interviewee, Right.
00:23:28.846 --> 00:23:33.071
So in this conversation, right?
00:23:33.071 --> 00:23:36.336
Um, this is the show that you know, you're on our show.
00:23:37.057 --> 00:23:37.217
Yeah.
00:23:38.076 --> 00:23:47.583
It is my job as the host of the show this is my perspective to lead the conversation in a way that gets the result I want to get.
00:23:47.583 --> 00:23:49.584
Like that feeds the.
00:23:49.584 --> 00:23:54.066
What is it that I that we want for people to take away from it?
00:23:54.066 --> 00:23:54.807
And that is that is not random.
00:23:54.807 --> 00:24:09.421
There is there's intention in that right.
00:24:09.421 --> 00:24:13.953
I think that this is you know.
00:24:13.953 --> 00:24:28.986
I'd love to hear your thought on the, the, uh, what, what, what the seemingly intended purpose was for the conversation and do you feel like that was clear?
00:24:28.986 --> 00:24:37.246
And if it was clear, do you feel like that it did what it was designed to do?
00:24:37.246 --> 00:25:01.500
And how much does the kind of the, the, the person who is um controlling the, the narrative, the onus on that person to then make the narrative meaningful in the way it's supposed to be, and that makes sense yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:02.963
So, um, I think did.
00:25:02.963 --> 00:25:10.163
I don't know if you guys have seen it, but he did a rebuttal video.
00:25:10.182 --> 00:25:10.984
I hadn't seen that.
00:25:13.155 --> 00:25:33.520
From what I was gathering from him, if you listen to his when he first started the whole thing, his statement of what he was trying to create it was a platform for people to come and just be comfortable enough to tell their truth.
00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:44.741
And he said that his platform is not one that he's going to be on there arguing back and forth and like debating or all this stuff.
00:25:44.741 --> 00:26:00.701
He said I just feel like that's what my platform was created to do is, he says, like Christians don't really have a place to come and just tell their truth and give their point of view without all of this backlash.
00:26:00.701 --> 00:26:09.829
And so he also admitted that he should have interjected at some points in there.
00:26:09.829 --> 00:26:20.189
He said, but y'all really knew at doing this and, like, after hearing from you know, some of the people that you know hold him accountable, he could see it.
00:26:20.255 --> 00:26:28.064
But like in that moment he said I'm still trying to figure all that stuff out because this is episode, literally probably episode four.
00:26:28.064 --> 00:26:37.063
And so he asked for grace because he's related and some things he just didn't know.
00:26:37.063 --> 00:26:59.378
But he felt like he should have interjected to your point, guided a certain way, and then he ended by saying y'all, I sing hard and I do runs okay, and so, like I mean, he's sitting there making these statements and I am the the guy that actually knows what he's talking about.
00:26:59.378 --> 00:27:07.587
We don't need to do, and so I think that if it didn't do anything, it got us to this point that we're talking.
00:27:08.009 --> 00:27:08.653
You see what I'm saying.
00:27:08.653 --> 00:27:09.035
I agree.
00:27:10.057 --> 00:27:11.723
We're talking about it and unpacking it.
00:27:11.723 --> 00:27:37.515
I've heard so many other artists come out and kind of talk about it and I think it's good that we have these conversations and we unpack some stuff, man, and just talk about it, because there's so much that there's so many different levels to this that you could be like, on the level that I am, I've never been to the Grammys, I've never been to the Dove Awards.
00:27:37.515 --> 00:27:42.760
So then you have people on that level that they can open the veil, and so I've been trying to.
00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:45.961
Even today, I listened to naomi rain.
00:27:46.080 --> 00:28:04.319
She did a podcast with lecrae, okay, and so I listened to that, like right before we got on very, very good and just kind of taking you behind the scenes of maverick city, like some of the stuff that was going on, and she had a baby out of wedlock, like all these different things.
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