Aug. 4, 2025
Unlearning The Gospel Music Industry (Was Maverick City's Manager Right or Wrong?)
Send us a text Darnell Harris joins us for a special conversation about the tension between industry success and spiritual authenticity in worship leadership. • The episode was prompted by a controversial podcast featuring Norman from Tribl Records discussing his industry-focused approach with Maverick City Music • Darnell shares concerns about worship leaders feeling their ministry isn't valuable if it doesn't bring headlines, Grammys, or viral moments • The crucial question: are you being ...
Darnell Harris joins us for a special conversation about the tension between industry success and spiritual authenticity in worship leadership.
• The episode was prompted by a controversial podcast featuring Norman from Tribl Records discussing his industry-focused approach with Maverick City Music
• Darnell shares concerns about worship leaders feeling their ministry isn't valuable if it doesn't bring headlines, Grammys, or viral moments
• The crucial question: are you being led by the Lord or by the marketplace?
• Understanding the difference between what is "good" and what is "God"
• King David's story illustrates the danger of adopting methods that work but aren't God's prescribed way
• True success comes from obedience to God, not metrics, likes, or streams
• Worship must be formed in everything you do, not just when you're on stage
• The challenge of maintaining spiritual discernment in a social media-saturated culture
If you enjoyed part one of this conversation, tune in next week for the conclusion of this two-part series. Continue to like, share, and subscribe so we can grow this unlearning community together.
00:00 - Welcome to the Unlearned Podcast
03:01 - The Gospel Industry Controversy
08:42 - Chasing the Kingdom vs. Chasing Success
14:17 - When Good Replaces God
19:51 - The Tension of Biblical Principles
27:43 - Darnell's Personal Journey
33:44 - Worship Is in Everything You Do
WEBVTT
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hello everybody and welcome us again to the unlearned podcast.
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I'm your host, ruth abigail aka ra, and this is the podcast that is helping middle adults change their minds so that they can experience more freedom.
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And, uh, y'all we are.
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This is a special episode.
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I ain't gonna let.
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This is something we've never done before.
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We we done got up on a day.
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We wasn't planning on getting up.
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We done.
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You know coordinated schedules, because we felt like we had to have this conversation right now, and so we're excited about that.
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Before we get into it, I just want to say thank you for listening to this show.
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Continue to like, share, subscribe.
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We really, really want you to be a part of this unlearning community.
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We know that there are all things we got to unlearn in order to be free, and so we want to help you do that, um, and so be sure to check out our episodes.
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They drop every tuesday, um, and don't keep it to yourself.
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Y'all, pass it along so we can continue to grow the community.
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Um, all right, so this is a special episode and, as you can see, I have a very special guest.
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Those of you that have been following us for a couple of years will remember him.
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He and his wife Sundra.
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They were on our Unlearning Marriage series not too long ago and we'll be sure to drop that episode in the comment and what we drop it in the something show notes that's the word and so that you can go back to it.
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It's an amazing episode and if y'all listen, man, you know this dude is dynamic.
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I am so, so grateful to have Mr Darnell Harris in the building.
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What's up, man?
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What's going on?
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Yo man Listen, Darnell, we have known each other for quite some time, but the last couple of years we've just connected in a different way.
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Well, I tell y'all, y'all don't know Darnell is.
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He is times 10 in just about everything.
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Like you, you, you you're time 10,.
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man, I don't have enough money to pay for that thing.
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Have enough money to pay for that thing, man like you.
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just you know your energy, your commitment, your love for people, your love for the Lord.
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The way you communicate, man, it's just like, it's just exponentially impactful and I really do appreciate that and I I'm excited to have this conversation with you.
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But first, how?
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you doing.
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Doing great man.
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Thank you for this invite.
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Thank you for your kind words.
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The feeling is mutual.
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I think you have something special going on here and I'm just glad to be a part of it.
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Glad to be a part of it and glad to be out the baseball street.
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Somebody, somebody, somebody say amen, oh my, because it's hot, it's hot, it's hot.
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We don't need all that man, that's right.
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Oh man, no, that's good.
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So let me catch y'all up, right?
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So if y'all haven't been paying attention, this actually is a special episode.
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This is outside of a series.
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This is outside of a normal segment.
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I, I'm a huge gospel music fan.
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I'm a huge gospel, so much so that any other genre I I know just enough to be dangerous.
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But I, I can embarrass myself.
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I did this the other day with my husband.
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We were out and we were, uh, uh, I think we're on bill street.
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We were at bb king's with some stuff and I said, oh, that's, and I named this artist.
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I thought it was.
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He looked at, like that's not who that is.
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I was like what you mean?
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Like yes, it is, no, it's not.
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And I was like, oh, shoot, he's right.
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But, like if, if I just I kind of missed a lot of kind of know in other genres because I was so ten toes down and gospel, grown up, church kid, all this stuff.
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And so, for those of you that aren't familiar, isaac Cree has a podcast and there was an episode from the manager of Tribal Records, or not, manager, he's the owner of Tribal Records and he managed Maverick City and he's kind of the one who brought them, uh, to to life.
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His name was norman and I can't, I can't, I can't say his last name.
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I was gonna ask you what it was.
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So if you can't say it, we're just gonna call him no he's gonna call it norman, okay, okay, okay, norman, uh.
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and so norman was on there and this man, he, he rocked, he rocked the shit man, he rocked it and, um, I mean he really, his comments and all the things that people were saying, I mean it's just really kind of uh created this conversation.
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That's really really interesting.
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And so it's like.
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So Darnell and I were actually on the phone and he brought it up to me and we started talking and I was like yo, this would be a really good episode to do, right, this would be a great podcast episode.
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So we said let's jump on this weekend and do it.
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So I'm excited.
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So, all right.
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So, first of all, so that people know where you're coming from in this conversation, just just give it a little bit of how you connect to this narrative.
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anyway, Well, church kid grew up Pentecostal in Chicago, illinois, started singing probably around the age of seven in church and been kind of doing it my whole entire life, been worship director, worship pastor, youth pastor, minister of music drummer, background singer, worship leader and conference worship leader.
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I have done it for free, I've done it I got paid, I've been on all spectrums of it and so I think that the Lord has graced me and given me knowledge throughout the years, to speak about certain things in regards to worship.
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Yeah, so today, y'all, what we're really going to do is we're going to unpack what this idea of unlearning worship a little bit and, uh, particularly in the context of industry, like, I think cause I think that's kind of the undergirding you know what I'm saying Like tension that a lot of people are feeling is the conversation that that was had on the podcast with Norman was so industry heavy, Um, and I think a lot of people were feeling like where's the, where's the spiritual context in this?
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Where does that come into play?
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And I'd love to just start off with just your general thoughts on the conversation.
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And look, we'll drop the link to the podcast so you can listen to it for yourself if you want to listen to it.
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I think it's a very brilliant podcast, I think it's interesting and I think it's worth listening to.
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So if you haven't listened to it, it's a.
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I think it's a very brilliant podcast, I think it's interesting, Um, and I think it's worth listening to.
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So if you haven't listened to it, we'll make sure to drop it in in our, in our, in our show notes.
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But just what were your original?
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What were?
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your immediate thoughts about it.
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Like what, what did you think?
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Well, first of all, um, I think that a lot of the things that Norman was sharing I didn't necessarily disagree with.
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It was just something about his, his posture that kind of irritated me a little bit, if I'm just being honest.
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But the things that he was saying for the most part I agree with from an industry point.
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From an industry point, I think that for me it's like I was protected or in my mind, I'm like man, those that do worship and listen to this.
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I didn't want it to push them to now feel that if what it is the Lord has given them is not making headlines, is not bringing in grammys, is not bringing in all these likes on social media or downloads, that it's not valuable.
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So I think the main thing that norman did I got of what he was saying was the value in how he marketed Maverick City and Travis Green, and all the streams and all the sponsors and Grammys came from the way that he did it, and I'm trying to make that the way that everybody should do it, and it just made me just kind of feel a way about that, because I do believe that God calls worship leaders, and not just worship leaders in any spectrum of corporate America.
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God calls those of us that are are professing his, his Christ and his lordship to that market, and so there is a place for you know, gaining money and like all of that.
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I just man.
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I think the danger is the line between man who's leading you, like, are you being led by the lord or are you being led by the marketplace?
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And that is that's something that we got to talk about, like what is, what's the driving force behind what it is that you're after, because I believe that sooner or later those two worlds will collide.
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Yeah.
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And you will have to make a decision on which side you're on.
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Like do I make this money against God, specifically telling me, hey, I don't want you to do that or hey, I want you to do this.
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That may not get you worldly fame, but it'll get you a diamond in your crown in heaven if you will.
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Yeah, I think what is your who's leading you?
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I think that's the.
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That is a major question.
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What's leading you?
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The world, or the marketplace, or God?
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How do you, how do you even determine that?
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How would, if somebody was, was listening to, like, like, wait, and this, this obviously doesn't just um, that question isn't just relevant for this particular context.
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I mean, that is, that is a question, uh, for anyone who calls themselves a believer.
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But, um, how, what would be the steps in going back to check your motive?
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Because I think a lot of times and I can agree with what you're saying with the podcast, I I do agree with his assessment of the industry.
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I think he's right, I think strategically, he was, he's straight on, he's dead on, like and and you see it working and nobody can argue with that.
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Um, and I think that the question is like what's the motive, what's the goal?
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Um, and there and how, how do you kind of assess personally what?
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What are some questions you ask yourself to determine who's leading you?
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Absolutely man, jesus you ask yourself to determine who's leading you.
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Absolutely.
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Man.
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Jesus.
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So while you were talking, man, I had two things that I thought about.
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One, I thought about Genesis, I thought about creation, I thought about Adam and Eve and the instruction that they were given that they could eat of any tree except for this particular tree.
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That was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that always kind of messed with me, because the question that I always had was why is good in there?
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Why is it just not the knowledge of evil?
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So what is this thing about?
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Good?
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That is a problem too, and so that's because good can be good, but not God, and God didn't want Adam and Eve to wrestle with what is good or what is not good or what is evil.
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He just wants them to have a relationship with him.
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Yeah.
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And so if we go then to Romans 12 and 1, it says present your body, live in sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God, which is your, it says in ESV spiritual worship, acceptable unto God, which is your.
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It says in ESV spiritual worship, verse two and be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may be able to prove what is good.
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And so if you're not presenting your body, your gifts, the things that God has given you unto him, you won't be able to prove what's good, and so something that may seem good for someone else may not be necessarily good for you.
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It's all depending upon where God is leading you.
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And so if we use David as an example of someone coming from being a shepherd which was not looked upon as a grand job back then in the Bible days, all the way up to 20 years later being king of all of Israel, he did not want to be king.
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There's nowhere where you see David chasing the kingdom.
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He was actually called to the kingdom by God.
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So the first question I feel like those of us as worship leaders specifically like are you doing what it is that God is calling you to do, or are you chasing something because you saw somebody else do it and it was successful?
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There was a party put together and you had, and you had Samuel coming to Jesse's house.
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David didn't know about the party and he wasn't invited to the party.
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David was busy doing the will of God and God invited him to the party and anointed him to be king.
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He wasn't chasing the kingdom, and I think that's the danger with the podcast for me.
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I didn't want people to get this seed of chase for the marketplace and disregard the chase for the kingdom, and it's like we should be chasing after God, like David is in that, in that with those, uh, the sheep, and he's playing the harp and he's doing his thing.
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Like he's doing his thing and he's content.
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Like he don't even know.
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He don't even know what he don't know, like it wasn't no, wasn't no social media back then.
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He didn't know a party.
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He didn't even know they were getting together.
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He didn't know any of that stuff.
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All he knew is man, I'm here and I'm doing the will of God.
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I'm at this church and I'm leading worship and I'm doing the will of God.
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It's 15 members, it's 20 members, it's 500, whatever, wow.
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But God has me here and I'm doing the will of God and if and when God wants me to be bigger or on a bigger platform or whatever, god moves me, it's not my chase.
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Okay, All right.
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So you said so much.
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I think there's a key thing here and I don't you didn't emphasize it, but I want to pull it out because you said I don't want people to hear this and think something.
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That here part is so crucial, right, what, what, what voices are we listening to to help us to stay in a, to help us to not chase?
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And I think, like my, my, my question, my question is um, how, how do you, how would you help people to discern who you, what, who, and what you listen to?
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Because the, the, the, it's, it's what, what comes into your, your, your psyche, through your hearing.
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Whether we and I think this is something as as, as, as Jesus followers, as people that are, as people that consider themselves to be spiritual people we disregard sometimes the power of voice, Even though your heart might be right and your intentions might be right.
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We disregard the power of a voice, and it's not enough to want to do the right thing, you have to position yourself to do it.
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Um, and I think that when, when you're saying, like you know, David was, David was, he wasn't, he wasn't even paying attention to other stuff, right, he wasn't even, he was just, he was just head down doing what he did, and that's just what.
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Man, how, how reasonable is it to do that today?
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Like, how do you even do that?
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It's so hard because social media has connected us to the whole entire world and now there's this comparison of where I am and what I'm doing versus where the top artists or the top songwriters and what they're doing, and I just think it's hard for people to understand that whatever the Lord tells you to do is a hundred percent successful the minute you do it, the very minute that you do it with no likes and no shares and no strings, because God told me to do it and I did it it's a hundred percent successful.
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Wow.
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Because now that's my part and his part the Bible says that he is the Lord of the harvest.
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He is the one that determines how big and when and where, and I think when we get involved in trying to make something happen, that it's just we're out of the will of God.
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The question that you asked about the voices and what we hear David wrote Psalms, chapter one.
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There's a verse in there that says blessed is the man that standeth, not in the counsel of the ungodly.
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And so there, it is right there, godly.
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And so there it is right there.
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We have to judge righteously the things that we hear against the word of God, which is a whole other thing.
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Like you got to know the word of God, we have to get in it.
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We have to let that be the thing that leads us and guides us, and not the success or fame of the world, because there's going to be things that the world do that's going to be successful.
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I love David.
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I'm probably going to talk about him all day.
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Yeah, david, when he became king, david wanted the presence of God to be central to the worship in Jerusalem.
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To be central to the worship in Jerusalem.
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Under Saul's kingship, the Ark of the Covenant, which represented the presence of God, was in Shiloh, which was the capital and the military base.
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So under Saul, for 20 years, the Ark of the Covenant was only really brought in during a time of a war or something going on where they needed God to step in and help.
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Correct, but far as being central to the worship it was not.
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And so, david, the first thing he did when he became king was he wanted to bring the Ark of the Covenant in Jerusalem.
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So he put this big parade together and the Bible says that he put the ark on a cart and brought it in.
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Only problem is instructions in Exodus says that the Ark of the Covenant should not be carried on the cart, but it should actually be carried by four Levites, their showers.
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And so David wanted the presence of God, but he neglected the way of God.
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David wanted the presence of God, but he neglected the way of God.
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And Uzzah trying to do a good thing.
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The oxen that was pulling the cart stumbled, looked like the ark was going to fall, uzzah puts his hands on it and Uzzah dies.
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When I read that man it was like wow, because I know being a Jew.
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They knew david knew the commandment of the lord, he knew that that was the wrong way.
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Yeah, yeah, to carry, yeah.
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So I was asking myself why did he carry it that way?
00:20:25.346 --> 00:20:35.221
And so if you go to first samuel I believe it's chapter six the children of Israel are in a war, they're losing.
00:20:35.221 --> 00:20:36.690
Somebody says, hey, go get the ark.
00:20:36.690 --> 00:20:38.891
They get the ark, they continue to lose.
00:20:38.891 --> 00:20:44.830
And the Philistines steal the ark, they take it over to their land, they have it for seven months.
00:20:44.830 --> 00:20:51.498
They're experiencing all of this devastation because God is like giving them tumors and like all these things.
00:20:51.498 --> 00:20:55.276
And they said we got to give this to them.
00:20:55.276 --> 00:21:01.828
And so they built a cart, wow, wow, put the art on.
00:21:01.828 --> 00:21:05.557
And so when I read that I was like, oh, my God.
00:21:05.557 --> 00:21:15.638
So they got the idea of carrying it that way from their enemy or from the world.
00:21:15.900 --> 00:21:25.769
Wow, instead of, and because they saw it work, come on wait, because they saw it work.
00:21:25.930 --> 00:21:28.277
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, they saw it work.
00:21:28.365 --> 00:21:30.152
I mean, no, god said, do it this way, but they did it that way, and it's not.
00:21:30.152 --> 00:21:38.335
I mean, no, god said, do it this way, but they did it that way, and it actually, man, it's easier, it's easier that way.
00:21:38.335 --> 00:21:47.873
And so they were standing in the council of the ungodly and somebody lost their life.
00:21:47.873 --> 00:21:52.700
So, yeah, man, that's okay, that hit.
00:21:52.881 --> 00:21:54.923
That hit as deeply as it did the first time.
00:21:54.923 --> 00:22:01.109
You said it because when we talked on the phone the first time, you unpacked this for me and after that thing hit and it hit the same.
00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:05.346
That's how you know it ain't you, ain't you ain't talking about nothing, but what's in the word?
00:22:05.346 --> 00:22:07.393
So it's like it's not even, it's just it ain't you.
00:22:07.393 --> 00:22:23.881
I mean, you just, you're just unpacking scripture yeah, um god, there's so much in that, darnell, you know that's there's so much in there I honestly, I don't even know where to go.
00:22:30.644 --> 00:22:31.586
It's so so.
00:22:31.586 --> 00:22:35.536
So I think that you know this idea of I don't know, I think I want to go here and it worked.
00:22:35.556 --> 00:22:35.855
It works.
00:22:35.855 --> 00:22:36.698
We talk about this.
00:22:36.698 --> 00:22:37.385
I don't know about you.
00:22:37.385 --> 00:22:39.328
I hear this a lot.
00:22:39.328 --> 00:22:49.773
The principles of the Bible work, regardless of whether or not you believe in and have given your life over to the Lord.
00:22:49.773 --> 00:22:52.038
The principles work and I have a lot of.
00:22:52.038 --> 00:22:52.878
I say a lot.
00:22:52.878 --> 00:23:19.553
There are people in my life who, I would say, have more, have a respect for the Bible and the word because of the principles in it, Not necessarily because of their commitment to the Lord Right, and because the principles work, Like it works now, Like you cannot deny that right.
00:23:19.553 --> 00:23:21.813
We see it all the time.
00:23:21.813 --> 00:23:24.431
It is hard.
00:23:24.431 --> 00:23:51.151
It's hard to, I think, for a lot of people and it's hard for a lot of people to want more of god when getting a little bit of him gets you to where you want to go oh my god, yeah, you know what I mean yeah, it's you kind of like I don't why I was so I.
00:23:51.192 --> 00:23:52.515
Like I'll get it.
00:23:52.515 --> 00:24:01.768
Yeah, and I think this is, you know, ultimately, why the real transformative nature is not a.
00:24:01.768 --> 00:24:05.853
Only the Holy Spirit can do that, like that is and that's not something we can do.
00:24:05.964 --> 00:24:07.151
There's no strategy for that.
00:24:07.151 --> 00:24:09.252
You just you got to let God do the work.
00:24:09.252 --> 00:24:10.608
That's why you know you witness and God works.
00:24:10.608 --> 00:24:10.755
That's it.
00:24:10.755 --> 00:24:11.116
You got to let God do the work.
00:24:11.116 --> 00:24:11.981
That's why you know you witness and God works.
00:24:11.981 --> 00:24:13.929
That's it.
00:24:13.929 --> 00:24:17.136
You can't make a thing work when it comes to transforming somebody's heart.
00:24:17.136 --> 00:24:30.815
But what I think is, again, that mentality is still very prevalent amongst people who have given their heart to God, like David man after God's own heart.
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God calls him that.
00:24:32.529 --> 00:24:38.990
So it is.
00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:59.964
You know, I think and again, we can't pretend like we're not susceptible to accepting less of who God is in total in order to experience the success of his principles and the success of things that do work Right and I love and good stuff.
00:24:59.964 --> 00:25:04.926
I think that that is, you know, we've heard it before in a million different ways.
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