Ain’t Nobody Coming To See You Otis

Summer Movie Series Kickoff

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Yo, yo, yo, what's up, everybody? And welcome once again to the Unlearned Podcast. I'm your host with Abby Gill, aka R A. What up, friends? It's your girl, Jaquita. This is the podcast that is helping you gain the courage to change your mind so that you can experience more freedom. Q Queen. There we go. There we go. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

All right, folks. Welcome back to our summer uh summer movie series where we are picking movies that are known and loved and seeing what we unlearn from them.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

My lord. Let me tell you something. The rewatch be real.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

No, it does. It does.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

The rewatch be so for real. Because even with your classics, you know, like you're going back and watching them like, dang, dang, it was a lot going. A lot going on. Also, why was I eight watching this?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, this this is this is this is what you realize.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

It's like, man, this was not appropriate. Nobody was really monitoring. You know, we were watching the movies with the adults. Absolutely. You know, it was like, hey, family movie time. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

We're about to watch this. But you know what? You know what? And full disclosure, this movie we're about to do, we we just watched with uh Tyson, uh, our son, and he's 11, which we felt like was okay. He he loves music, and um we and so we watched it with the but we watched it with him with intentionality, knowing that we were gonna have to explain some things and and knowing that we were gonna have to talk through some stuff, right? And it was great. Now, there were some things that he didn't love, understood, and and to be fair, yeah, to be fair, there were some things like it had been a minute to you know you you know the premise of it, but it's like there had been a minute for the the details, and so there were some details like you know what we go, just go through that just a little bit. Um, and we did, we we ended up doing that, but to today we are uh we're talking about a classic. I mean a true classic. A true classic, a true classic.

Temptations Vs Five Heartbeats Debate

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Um, the temptations, the mini-series, guys.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Also, okay, we're gonna have we gotta have a small conversation, family, okay, because as we were choosing these movies, and I think most of you know where this is going, a debate came up, okay. A conversation, if you will, okay, because a debate is more fair, Ruth Abigail has only seen a certain other movie one time, right? And it is a movie very comparable to the Temptations Action. No, because it came eight years before they released the Temptations movie. Thank you very much. We're talking about the Five Heartbeats people, and I need to know, okay. I need to know not which movie is better because different budgets, okay, and things. All right, Robert Townsend was out here getting it out the mud, okay, and they still produce a great movie, a cult classic, all right. Highly beloved, all right. Which movie are you rocking with more? All right, which movie you now I'm not saying which which movie's better, which one? I'm saying which one do you know more lines from? Which one is just a little bit more beloved in your heart? Okay, and we're not even gonna tell you which one we I think y'all know. I think y'all know.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I think we should. I because I'm not gonna be out here, people look, temptations all day for me. It's just it's just what it is. Like, listen, I'm sorry, it's just no comparison.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Fantastic. All right, it is a part, you know, they be playing it at Christmas. Be like, what we gonna watch? Just put the temptations on, okay? See the Medea movie, I just just play the temptations, you know, just put something on the TV, you know. Put the temptations on the street. You know, it's the perfect, it's a perfect black household staple. I love the temptations, and as I as I re-watched it, I I I I I remembered why I loved it. But the five heartbeats, let me tell you something. You put the five heartbeats on, I'm singing all the songs, I'm going in as if I'm in the audience. Okay, the five heartbeats is uh is your heartbeat. Okay, it's down deep. Okay, my office hours are from nine to five. All right, okay, and Ruth doesn't even know the significance of that.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

I actually do because I've seen the movie. I do know the significance of the movie. She saw it once. It's fine, it doesn't matter. I do know that because you've you've said it and you hear people say that line. Now, when when that line came out, when I heard that, I was like, oh, I get it now. Because I heard it for forever. I was like, I don't get the big deal. Anywho, we talked about the temptations today.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

We are talking about the temptations. We talk about the temptations. Talking about Otis and the Temptations. Because as you watch the movie, there are moments where you go, this movie is very much from Otis's point of view.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

He's the only one that's alive to tell the one that's alive to tell the story. And some of the story is told in a way that's like, all right, Otis. Otis said, All right, since I'm the one still here, don't tell it my way.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

And he wrote the book. So he wrote a book, mixed up in his place. I'm not mad at that. Shout out to Otis. You know what I'm saying? Shout out to Otis. That's what's still out here kicking. So it's a hey man, keep it alive. Yeah, keep it alive, right? Uh, and so he, you know, so so we're we're gonna with the temptations came out in 1998. Oh, uh, it's a two it was a two-part miniseries. Uh, for those of you, it came out on TV, but you

Why The Temptations Story Hits

SPEAKER_01 5:55

know, it got so popular, you know what I'm saying? You don't even remember it. Didn't actually come in the movies, you know, but it came out, it was a TV mini-series. It could have. Oh, it could have, for sure. It could have. But it's too long. It's it's a long movie. You know what I'm saying? Too long. It's long. And it chronicles three and a half hours. It chronicles the entire life of the temptations from um when they were teenagers till most of them died. So um, you know, it is a full 25 members. All but is it that many?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Okay, I was supposed to like no.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

You gotta you gotta count all the people who came in, subbed in, you know, Richard was at the mic for a little bit. Yeah, you know, you gotta count him, you know, like now gets counted.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

You know, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of a bunch of members. Um yeah, I'm gonna be able to do that. Then they broke off into two different groups and oh, that's true. Extras on all of those. You're right, you're right about it, you're right about it. So, what we're gonna do is we're just gonna kind of talk through the movie. We're not gonna hit everything because it's long. Um, but it's a lot, it's a lot going on. It's so rich, very rich in theme, very rich in theme.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

It's it is not a comedy, although we as a community have found some comedic moments. Oh, okay, because ain't nobody coming to see you, Otis. Oh, okay. Let me tell you something. Yeah, yeah. It's a staple in my family.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

It's yeah, it's a staple. Ain't nobody came to see you, Otis. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. It's not, it's not a comedy, but we we we we love we love certain moments. 28 members. Apparently, there were 28 members, past and present. I didn't know it was that many. That's crazy. Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

I mean, but you gotta think about it. Especially toward the end of the movie, it was just people popping up. I was like, who is this man? Like after Eddie left the group, they had some new guy, they didn't even give him a name, they never named this man. He just started singing the high parts. Oh, yeah. Who is he?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

You mean the short man? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He just popped up. Yeah, that's true. Um, yeah, I yeah, so so so this is a great, like the temptations is so iconic, like that's group and their music and just their their persona in the industry is so iconic that you have 28 people that were part of this group, and we still only know them as the temptations, like their brand has been strong for over 50 something years. Like, that is insane. Um and and so I think a big question around that is like well, one of the big questions

Legacy And The Cost Of Success

SPEAKER_01 8:36

is at what cost do you what cost do you have to pay to have that kind of legacy?

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Um, and I think that's a big theme in the movie because you have these guys who have this incredible talent, and all they want to do is sing. And they want they want they want to sing. And like they don't have these, you know, they're not thinking, they want to sing and they they want to make a little money doing it, so they don't have to do stuff they don't want to do, but they could never, I'm sure none of them could ever have imagined how how big it got and how much it impacted their lives. And so it's like, at what cost was their legacy?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

And it was a big cost, like and and it it felt like as the movie went on, the two-part series, right, that the cost kept getting steeper and steeper because as they got higher and higher, right, like more internal issues started to show, right? Like everything, everything that could kind of hide when you were just trying to make it and all of your energy was being focused on getting there, right? When you're no longer exerting that energy to get there and you're there, and now the windows open on who you really are and what work you've really been doing internally, right? Then all everything, we're playing a different game now.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Right? And and not just for the characters who seem to be the most, you know, troublesome, not troubled, troubled. How about that? You know, the ones who who kind of had the most because I think the movie is also very defined in that you have these people who have these very strong family backgrounds, right? Like you have Otis, you got his mom. I don't know if that's his dad or his stepdad. His stepdad. Okay, yeah, because it gave stepdad, but he said, You always did right by me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so I was like, okay, they got a good relationship, though. And that man was there for everything. Every family event. Stepdaddy was right there. He was right. I said, That's a good man, Savannah. That's a good man, right? But but you know, you have like their strong family units and um blue, blue hair is mama, right? Um, played by Jennifer Lewis, and one of her tamer roles. One of her table roles. You know, she really gave us mama, you know. Like, yeah, like we looked at the biggest. Absolutely, absolutely, okay. Icon. Okay, she is an icon, right? But but you have like their very strong family units, very strong, you could tell, very strong upbringing, right? Very, very um classic traditional sense of, you know, working hard, sticking together, going after goals, you know, some sense of morality, like yeah. And then you have the other members who we don't really know as much about their background, but it the the hints that you get are very like David Ruffins. We know about David Ruffin because his mama sold him to the pimp and everything like that, you know, and then that's setting a that set a dangerous course, right? And and we'll talk about him in a minute, but then like Eddie and Paul, like you could tell like they're very enmeshed. Yeah, like they're not actual brothers, but it's like we take care of each other, yeah. And we we hold each other down. And so, and you know, I think Paul at some point mentions coming from like deep south troubled background, right? Yeah, yeah. Right. And so like you're looking at all of their their the way that their family stories are told, and that that plays a huge uh role when it comes to how they all navigate fame and success.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

That's actually a that's a great point. Like it and it makes you think about it reminds you of how important your foundation becomes when you start chase, when you start chasing your dream. Um you know, and it's like you know, you you have this uh we always uh chase your dream, go after your dream. And and I and I I think that's beautiful. Like I think it's a beautiful concept, but it really you really don't fully understand uh what comes with that until you until you understand where you come from.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yes, and I mean and you really have to spend some time because I this is not to say that there are some dreams that are for people and some dreams that are not. No, but you have to spend the time reconciling right your past, reconciling where you came from, dealing with your hurt, you know, and and allowing God to make you whole in those areas because when you get elevated on a platform, right, the enemy is coming for everything that you haven't addressed. Man. He is coming, and I and I'm not talking about, you know, you know, a little relational problem or a little this problem, he's coming for it all. And for some of them, he wanted their life, right? Like it's not just I want your success, I want your life. And the bigger your star power, the harder he went after them. Yeah. And I don't think sometimes, sometimes as we are growing as leaders and we're moving um from kind of one level of leadership to the next, and you know, they say higher, higher levels, higher, higher devils, you know, like like you're you're growing into these next phases of who you are, and you're getting more limelight, you're getting more responsibility, right? You're more visible than you've ever been, right? But you're also, it's not just your your good that's visible. It's your your fallacies, your vices, right? The places that uh people know they can get a foothold in, right? Those things are also visible because if you notice, and again, we'll get there, David Ruffin, as soon as he, it wasn't, he was fine. He was fine. He was, I mean, when you watch the movie, he in the background doing the little dances, you know, doing grooving, sang in the background notes. The moment Smokey said, I got a song for David, yeah, and he led my girl, yeah, the moment he got a lead, his entire disposition, his entire character shifted. Yep. Right? And and the first thing that happened when he started rising is that somebody came and started taking advantage of him. Somebody came because they said, oh, there's a foothold right there. He has a weak point, right? He's talented, he's gifted, right? And it's giving him access to money, power, and fame, right? And but because he hasn't addressed himself and his own wounds, which he he was very upfront about. He was like, I don't do rules. My mama sold me to a pimp, you know, and I had, and you know, he used to beat me, so I don't do rules, right? I ain't too good. Like he told them from jump, yeah, these are my, these are, these are, these are the things that will later come and catch me. Yeah. Right. I can play nice, but when when I get to a point where I'm not worried about money, resources,

Talent Without Wisdom Gets Used

SPEAKER_02 16:00

or where I'm not feeling like I'm still trying to climb, right? I'm I'm gonna become something else entirely.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

And and uh so let's let's do this. Let's just go back and paint the picture of the beginning of these, you know, teenage boys in Detroit who were just out here singing, like innocent, doing their thing, yeah, and just wanting, just wanting to be out there. They do the little talent show and they start they they do this talent shows and you know all this stuff, and they get connected. Um, what's Home Girl name? Um, in the in the movie. Johnny Mae, Ruth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um that's a bell Callaway. Yeah. Back at it again. Yeah, back at it again. Her their very first manager. And um they but they didn't know no better.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

And so, you know, I think this is one of the things they really didn't know no better because if you tell me to come to a radio station that's in the middle of an apartment, yeah, with a link, and you know, y'all, you got people upstairs, like like you gotta tell them be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, yes, and so it's like you, you know, but they're but they're they don't know, but this is it's kind of that um they they want it, they want something so bad they're willing to take what they can get. And and that's and and on some level that that's part of the grind. But on another level, though, that they need a wisdom. They didn't have it, they didn't have anybody to guide them at that point. Um, they were just out there. And so you start to see how having very little having talent but little wisdom, what what that what that gets you. And it's like, you know, we we really elevate talent in a lot of ways. Yeah. And we we celebrate talent, um, and we put talent on display, but we don't always do that with wisdom, and we don't celebrate wisdom, yeah, and we don't display wisdom or we don't encourage wisdom if your talent is so good. Like it's like that overshadows so much, yeah, and that can be really dangerous because uh talented people that is that is the that is really step one of your journey. You you have this talent, but it it's not enough to pull you through. We have to help people focus on the other found other things that they're gonna need to actually progress forward.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Well, I think you know, it is seen in so many people's journey, especially in the music industry, that talent without structure will be taken advantage of. Absolutely. Like if you don't know the business, the people that do know the business are going to come in and take advantage of you. We're thinking TLC, you know, and pebbles, all right. Like it it will cost you, right? Because, and I think, but that's not just in the music business, that is in every area of your life. Because you, one, if you are talented, but you are not learning the rules of engagement around you, right? If you're not learning organizational structure, if you're not learning, right, how people in positions are making decisions and why they're making the decisions that they're making, right? You are going to be a pawn and not a player. That's right. In order to become a player, you have to learn the board, right? And you cannot just be really good at the one thing that you do. No, you have to learn what everything else on the board is doing and why they're doing it, and who has the capacity to do what, right? And why their moves are essential for winning the game. Yeah. Right? And so I think Otis, who is seen throughout the movie as just a natural leader, right? Like he is just like, hey, you know, because Otis and talent, you know what I'm saying? On that one song, he went, I said, you better, you better ha to the people, Otis. I said, who's at him breathing this mic like this? But Otis said, I need a part, and my part ain't finna be the same. But Otis was the leader, he was the organizer, he was the glue, right? He was the one that that kept them all together, right? That set structure to what the group was gonna look like. He's the one who assembled everybody, right? He's the one who went and got blue. Yeah, right. They were out there singing, they heard blue do the hit that, oh, right? They was like, we gotta have him. We gotta have them. Wait, wait, wait, do it again, do it again, do it again. No, no, I'm glad I did it once, okay? But you know, like you know, he's he is the one, and he knew he knew his people, he knew their downfalls. He was always worried about what somebody was gonna do because he knew what they were capable of, right? He knew the their their capacity for good and their capacity to mess this all up, right? He he was just very observant and cognizant as a leader. And even with Johnny May, you know, when uh Barry Gordy asked him in the in the bathroom, y'all got a manager, he was like, Blue was like, yes. Yes. Otis was like, we don't have to have one. Yeah, we can be we can be free. Okay, because Johnny May can't get us where you can get us. That's right. Right? Like his mind was always surveying. And even when Johnny Roof came back, came around with that car with their name on it, yeah, and a wild money that she put back in her bra, okay, right? Like, when when when he was like, Well, I'm trying to learn the business of it, right? Nobody else was concerning themselves with the business, right? Otis was always on top of the business, and as the movie progresses, he Was always making business-minded decisions where other people, like Eddie and Blue, were like the people, right? Like, I really want to talk about Blue because Blue's my favorite character for a lot of reasons, but mostly because it takes a lot to be a second, and it doesn't always get as acknowledged because Blue didn't lead a lot of songs. Yeah. Right? He but he was the foundation of every song. You you know, I played Tuba, so you know that's what we prided ourselves on. You need the bottom. Uh-huh. Okay. You need the bottom to hold the song up, right? Y'all pay all them little trills and all them little melodies and notes and stuff, right? But my whole note is holding us down. There you go. Right, right. And so blue was holding the bottom. But I think Otis, as a leader and as a person that was constantly trying to not just grow as a person, but grow

Red Flags With Managers And Control

SPEAKER_02 22:55

the group. Yeah. Like help them to he realized I gotta grow my people in order to grow this, to grow us as an organization.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

So it something um to a red flag, if you are in a position where you, you know, you have a mindset like Otis's care, like Otis and his character, um and you're interested in understanding more and not just being a pawn, but understanding the game.

SPEAKER_04 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

And the people around you who know the game keep you from it. That's a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

And and so, you know, with with Johnny Mae, she was like she said, she had this water money, this car, and she was like, Y'all don't worry about this. Y'all just sing. That is a red flag. Like that's a red flag. So, you know, just be careful about people who can want to keep you stuck in that talent role. And that's all they want you to do. That's all they want you to focus on. They don't want you to have to do anything else. It may come across as we are, we want to unburden you from the the the the hard part of the business and from the pressures and all this stuff. We want you to just do what you do. All that's that that is a trap, honestly. Yeah, it's a trap, especially if you're interested. Now, if that's not what you want to do, that's fine. But if you've expressed interest in understanding more and they want to keep you in this in this box, you you need to you need to pay attention to that. You need to see see what that is because it keeps you in a place to be controlled. Yes. Um, and when you know, if you have a high degree of talent, understand that anybody who wants to control you wants to take advantage of you. And they're they're they're gonna win on your behalf and not share with you the spoils of the win.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

That's what's that's what's about to happen.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

And they're gonna take you where you don't want to go.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

They're gonna and you won't have any option because you have decided I'm going to just I'm I'm just gonna stay in this lane of talent because that's what they told me to do.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

But that ain't if they if you know in your heart that that's not what you that ain't what you built for, you built for more. You gotta you need to find somebody or find people who are willing to put you in position to know more. And one of the things so um one of the things I love about the story of how Debbie Allen worked on as a as a director on a different world, is she put uh her put her actors in positions to be directors and writers, and and almost made them do that so that even if they didn't really want to, so that you understood other parts of the business and you didn't get stuck as just an actor. So that you could you and so it's like she was a leader who was not interested in keeping her talent as just talent. She wanted them to grow. And it and it wasn't intimidating to her because she was like, I do, I do, I do what I do, but I need you as these young black actors to not get stuck in these roles because these people will take advantage of you. And that's very true. If you don't learn how to do this other stuff, you're at the mercy of people making phone calls to you, and they're not gonna make that phone call because they don't want you. So that those are those are things it's like, hey, she she is a leader worth following. There are other leaders in all kinds of different industries that if they don't have that kind of mentality, if they hold withholding information that you're asking for, my lord. Red flag, right? Um, and and be for to learn, not just to know, but to learn and you understand like that's the posture that you're presenting. And they are like, no, let me handle that. Don't you worry about that. You just do this. Red flag.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

But I think you know, it's so significant because I think all of us are gonna hit a Johnny Mae roof season where you took the option that was available to you at the time. Yeah. Right. And but it was a it was a season that that is where you learn. You you don't learn the organization, you don't learn the board when the times are easy. No. You learn the board through opposition. You do it becomes a it becomes a thing of necessity. Like, oh no, I gotta, I gotta learn the game, or else we're not gonna survive it. Yes. Right. And so Johnny May Ruth presented them with an opportunity to say, either you can stay here and get used and never see the fruit of your labor, because she put that money right back up. She didn't give them a nice $20 bill. Okay, she put all that money back up, right? But but she was she was instrumental in getting them to Motown and that the knowledge of knowing what she was holding back from them pushed them to pursue something that could be greater.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Absolutely right, including a better name because the L Gens was horrible.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Like the L Gens was horrible, the distance, the distance, the distance what were they before? Otis Williams and the Siberians. I was like, how do we become the Siberians? I don't I don't understand any of the times like y'all out here doing none of those. When they was out there thinking of names, boy, they were struggling. They were and it it it it would be appropriate that Paul was the one who was like, Okay, we need something sexy, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We need something that everybody wants, but they can't have. You know, like yeah, because y'all was y'all were all over.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Y'all, y'all were struggling. Y'all was struggling. Yeah, y'all were like, the hearses, yeah. No, no, y'all was struggling, but that but you're right, like it hurt her them being uh that up that that obstacle that she presented when they had to make a decision, we're either gonna go with her. She was like, if y'all walk away, I'm taking all of this because it's mine. And she took it.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

And realizing that I I'm gonna have to give up what I thought was my opportunity in order to get a better one, in order to get a better one. You're gonna have to walk away from something sometimes, yes, in order to get what's actually yours.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

And what also happened was Al walked away. Lord, Al.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

And it took Richard and the boy whose name we'll never know. Yeah. When uh I when I was watching the movie, I was like, hey, I ain't even seen them before. Yeah, we don't know him. That random little fifth boy. He ran, he ran away. We never saw him again. We never saw him. We never ended up coming back. Richard came back later on in the movie. Yeah, we ain't gonna be able to get it.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

But that young man is just gone. You they and it's like, hey, and so sometimes it's like it also it also the the opposite that that the manager they had to get rid of her, but also some sometimes the people you thought you was gonna go to the next next step with, they gotta go, they gotta go. Like, yeah, and and you see who's really in it, and you see what because because the obstacles also revere the character of the people around you. Can you handle opposition and not quit? Yeah, and three of the five of them couldn't do it at

Otis As Leader And Group Glue

SPEAKER_01 30:20

that time, they left.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

But the second, blue, I'm telling you, without blue, Otis would not have made it. Oh, that's facts. Because you gotta have somebody that you know is constant, yeah, that understands the vision, that is willing to ride when it gets tough, yeah, that you can have real moments with, because Otis never had to worry about what Blue was out there doing. You know what I'm saying? He never had to worry about because again, the movie starts with their foundation. Yeah. Right? It when you invite Blue into the group, he said, You gotta ask my mama. Yeah. Okay, I'm not the one you gotta ask. You know, I got I got a foundation, you gotta go check with that. Okay, right. And and blue as the second becomes the support to the vision that continues to propel it forward. Every time they get to a stopping place, or every time it feels like we're not gonna make it to our next, it is blue who provides the reassurance and the steadiness that says we can do this. Yes. Right? Yes, it's it's it's and I I just, you know, I learned, I tell everybody, you know, I used to include it on my resume, you know, when I was a young, and I no longer do. But being vice president of Furman University Gospel Ensemble, underneath Ruth Abigail as president, right? That was our claim to fame at Furman. It was. You know, what were you known for at Ferman? Firman University Gospel Ensemble is what we did, okay? That's what we did. And I could pray at a couple of events, all right? But mostly Furman University Gospel Ensemble, okay, is what I had to offer the Furman community. Uh-huh. Right. But being her second, I didn't realize it at the time, but I learned so much more about leadership being a vice president than I ever would have learned being a president. That's good. And when I graduated, I was like, I know how to help carry vision. Not necessary, not necessarily casting it, right? Not necessarily being the one to say, hey, I have all the ideas and all the thoughts, but I can carry it. And I will tell you that a journey that I've also where I've had to do some unlearning in being that, you know, really good second, is I've had to unlearn that I'm supposed to carry everything. Because when people realize you're a good second, they will just, hey, you know what I'm saying? You're on this journey. We need you on this journey. Not because I'm necessarily the best person for the job, but because I'm the most stable and steadfast for the job, because it's part of who I am. I'm called to be a second, right? And there are some areas of my life where I'm a great first, but even when I'm a first, I carry, I carry leadership like a second. Right? Like I carry it like I'm here to support the vision of the people that I that I serve. Yeah. Right? Like, and and I have vision. I have vision of how to support and how to help and how to strengthen y'all. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And so, and knowing who you have to know where you sit at in the group. And I think that was what became such a huge theme. One thing about Otis, Otis never tried to be the star. No. You know what I'm saying? Otis knew besides that.

unknown 33:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Okay, Otis knew. All right. And that one little song he sang for his booth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I gotta get the boo. Yeah. You know, I got I'm gonna say these three little lines after the fellas, you know, because I need to get, I need to get Josephine. That's it. Okay, and Josephine's a uh, let me tell you, I love her too, but we'll get to her in a moment. But you know, like everybody in the group played a part. Yeah. And it was, it what happened was when people overplayed their part, because being a part of a team means that you have a role to play. Yeah. Right? And on that chess board, because y'all know we like a metaphor, so this might be the one that we just continuously go to, just giving y'all fair warning, right? But on a chess board, you know, you have the knight that has a role and he can go in an L-shaped formation, right? And you have the queen that can do this and the king that can do that. But when a piece decides that it's bigger than the board and that it can do whatever it wants to do, right? You you out of formation. Yeah. The game is. And like Otis said, nobody's bigger than the group. Bigger than the group. Nope, nope, nope. Because that was Otis's, you know, David Ruffin's claim to fame was being a lead.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Right? As was Eddie. Eddie's was, I'm the high. Nobody can sing the high. Nobody else, everybody else I thought, I think could have, you know, interchanged roles. Eddie was like, who else gonna hit these notes? Yep. But me. Yep. Okay. I I sang the high leads, right? David and Paul can fight over the mid leads, right? Uh, blue has the bass. Otis has you got the harmony. Hold your note, Otis. Hold your note. We need you to hold your note so that the rest of us can sing on top of it. Yeah. Right. Like, right. I don't think Otis ever got a lead. After after the first 30 minutes, we never, we never saw Otis.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

But that wasn't, but that wasn't his role. And I think that's that's your like that's the point. Like, it wasn't his role. And quite frankly, like, and I I think going back to kind of our experience in the gospel choir, it's really interesting because um I was not somebody at the time that anybody would have picked out as anybody's leader. Everybody would have seen every everybody wanted Queen to be the president. And and I and I want Queen to be the president. Like, duh, like this, because her the way she showed up showed like it showed up, like her her persona was what people expected what a leader should be. She could, she could, she was, you know, she was good in front of the people, uh, she knew everybody. Didn't nobody honest to God, people didn't know who I was. Um that is not not a lot of people, honestly, they did, they really didn't. But but but what I think what we see in the the temptations, the relationship between Otis and Blue and then all the other because even in our experience, I'm glad you brought a gospel. That's really interesting. We had stars um in our in our choir. So um so I think We had a couple of David Ruffins. We we did, I mean, this is the everybody does, everybody does, and you have to understand how this thing all works together. I am not a I don't need a microphone, don't give it to me. That's not what I do.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Ruth didn't even sing on the choir. She was you did the printing, then they formed this band of band.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

I'm gonna put I'ma do what I do. I'ma say the little thing at the top. I'ma go to this keyboard, I'ma play. Y'all go sing. I'll go, guys. Hold on, there was one time.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

There was one time.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

I stepped in the game, then take the mic. It is one of my favorite college memories, right? So we were singing blessed by Fred Hammond. No, my brother. Nobody knew who was gonna

Blue And The Power Of Seconds

SPEAKER_02 37:40

do the lead. We get to the concert, and something happened that concert. A lot of stuff happened that concert, and we didn't know who was going, because you know, in the beginning, there's like a now everybody say bliss, bliss, and we didn't know who was gonna do that part, right? And so I'm sitting there and I hear the music start, and I know we're about to sing a song, and I see Ruth Abigail go to the mic, and Ruth said, now everybody say bliss. And I looked at her and she looked at me like, shut up, and I was, oh my gosh, one of my top 10 favorite movies was Ruth Abigail leading us in on that low note, and she was she was singing it like it was a low note.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Now everybody sing I could like literally for years, I couldn't talk about that. Like I couldn't actually, I couldn't talk about it. I was like, whatever, whatever, and whatever y'all want to bring it up, I'll be like, hey, we I can't, I can't, I can't handle it. Let me tell you something. It was the it was one of the most embarrassing moments. I because I I didn't know what nobody knew you were gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

You couldn't pull any tenner. I didn't know I was gonna do it. I don't know what made me do that. I don't know what made me do that. But Abigail said, see, that's an oldest moment. Ruth Abigail says, somebody has to step up to the plate. We and it's gonna be me. And it was a learning moment. It shouldn't have been me. I mean, you did it fine. Nobody probably thought twice about it except for me. Because I was not gonna let it go.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I was not gonna let it go. But it really did. This is where I think like the lead, like leader, like where I learned, I learned a lot about leadership in that moment, in that I think I felt compelled to do something that I thought a leader would do, which is to do something up front.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

And and to to to take to take charge in something. And I did that, but that's actually not that wasn't the best, that would not, that was not the best leader move. The best leader move would have been to say, come here, I need you to sing this and pull somebody else and delegate the to somebody who could do it, right? That that would have been what I should have done. But I didn't I didn't have that mind because I think in my younger days of understanding what leadership was, it really was like, I gotta be what people think a leader is. And people think a leader is the one out front doing the thing. And I and I never I was never that. So it's almost like I wanted to prove to other people I could lead.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

But you know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Well, no, that's it. I mean, I just think, but I think that we we don't see that like Otis. We we we don't see that necessarily in him. He understands his role, he understands. I when when I step up in the moments that it's time for me to step up, I'm gonna step up in the deals, I'm gonna step up in the studio, I'm gonna step up when it comes to conflict, I'm gonna step up, you know, when it comes to encouragement, when it comes to making hard decisions and having hard conversations, right? I'm gonna step up there. These guys are gonna step up on stage.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

That's so good. And that's so good. And I think, you know, some of them struggled with that, you know, throughout their own personal journeys. But at the end, when you know, Otis, they all old and you know, trying to rehearse and their knees hurting, and they can't do them dips and flips like they used to. And Otis was like, All right, we'll come back here tomorrow, and I'm gonna be hard on y'all. And then David Ruffin was like, you know, some of us don't, you should have never stopped being hard on us. Some of us really needed that, yeah. Right again, told from Otis's point of view. Sure, but we'll never know if he actually said that, right? I mean, I think he might have, but I also think that everybody like Otis's character got the most well-rounded, like of course, because yeah, because he's still alive. He's alive and yeah, and also Blue had the best funeral. I thought that was funny because Blue had Smokey singing, all right. He had uh Barry Gordon was there, right? Paul's funeral, we ain't see to the end where they walked up to Eddie. Like, hey, I hope the funeral was good. Yeah, right. They didn't even do a funeral for Eddie, right? David Ruffin, no funeral. They said they identified the body, though. That was sad. I mean, that, yeah, yeah, that was sad. But blue, I said, now we got a whole 10-minute funeral scene for your best friend. Anywho, anywho, but you know, I think Otis was just really, he was really clear on who he was, and it never deterred him. He never stopped being who he was, you know. And one thing, last point about Furman Gospel Ensemble, which shout out to Fuge, you know, very dear place in our heart. You know, 20, 25 years later, and I'm still very much attached to everything that I learned and gained from that experience. But another thing that I learned in Fuge was that even though I was a second, I had to learn the areas that I was first. Right. And so I remember there was one time Ruth Abigail, we used to uh at the beginning of the service, not the service, rehearsal. But it was sometimes it felt like that. We were open with scripture prayer and a little word of encouragement, okay? And then we would rehearse. Right. And I remember one time Ruth wasn't gonna be there. She had like a trip or something, and she was like, Hey, I need you to give the word today. And I was so nervous. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 43:16

But I I yeah, because you know, we were roommates. So Ruth literally, it wasn't like a business moment. Ruth literally came in my room at like 7:30 in the morning and was like, hey, you giving the word today, and then just left. And I was like, What? I'm not prepared for this, right? And then, so that time was fine. It happened a second time. And Ruth, because she knew everything going on in the organization and everything that they needed, she she said, Hey, you have to do the word today, which I was like, okay, I've done it before. And then she was like, and these are the notes, this is the word I need you to give. And when I tell you, I struggled with that. And I didn't know why I struggled with that at the time, but I was just like, I, this is an area where I'm actually first, right? Like, not like I need to be trusted here because this is where I excel. Right. This is if you're gonna delegate anything to me, yeah. And you know, the word of encouragement, let me have it.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Don't don't overmanage this moment, yeah. Right, don't overmanage what I bring to the table because I need to be free in the area of my giftedness, right? To to to impact the room. And I went up there, and because I I struggled with it the whole day, because I knew that what Ruth had given me was not for me to say, but she wasn't even gonna be there. And I knew I was like, I'm I'm and so I tried to do it and it just it did not go well. Like it wasn't received well. I was watching as people in the crowd because Ruth was trying to address what she saw, but I needed to address based off of my gift and my anointing, I needed to be able to flow, yeah, and it taught me a valuable lesson. And and I think this is where Otis struggled because he oftentimes tried to overmanage the moment. Yeah, it's good, yeah, yeah. He tried to overmanage the moments and he did not allow the people to flow in there. He didn't allow Blue to do what Blue did because Blue was a great reconciler. He was, he was a great, he was nobody ever was mad at Blue about nothing. Never, no, seriously. You know what I'm saying? He was a great brinage, he was a great mediator, right? But every time when it came to a hard decision, Otis told Blue, you have to agree with me. Yeah, you have to walk with me, and he never really allowed Blue to be to excel at what Blue was really good at in the group, which was being the foundation, holding them together, right? Blue would have been an excellent bridge between Otis and David Ruffin.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Gruffin, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

He would have been an excellent bridge between Otis, Paul, and Eddie. But because Otis kept pulling Blue to himself and saying, I need you to walk with me and to think like I think, to see things like I see things and to address things the way that I would address them, Blue wasn't able to operate in his gift within the group. And there were moments where Eddie was like, nah, Blue, we need your, we need your voice. Yeah, we need your vote. And so I think if you are that person that is a support within an organization, I remember one time uh I was in divinity school and I I used to, I used to, I used to, I used to claim it, it was my claim to fame. I was like, I'm a great second, you know, I play a great second fiddle, right? And I remember this, you know, Prophetess came to the school one day. She wanted to pour into us. And she looked at me and said, Stop saying that. And she said, you're never going to really realize where you're first at if you keep emphasizing being second. And I realized I I've grown now, right? Because I was what, 25 then, right? So this was almost 15 years ago. I have had to learn that even though I'm a great supporter, I have to learn the areas that I have to step up in. And it's it's an effort for me to step up because I I I love playing the background in some instances, right? Like I love just being a support person and doing the things that help things to go, and everybody don't got to know that I was there doing things, right? But I had to learn that there are areas where God has called me to be to be front and center.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

And, you know, um uh this is it's it's also we haven't talked about David Ruffin a lot. Let's let's talk about because David Ruffin is is what happens when um what happens when your talent precedes your character.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

And and it is the picture of somebody who crumbles under the pressure of success because his character has not been built, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

And but he is a clear talent. I mean, this man is is a star. It's just is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

One of my favorite scenes is when they're singing shout at the New Year's.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

That's that's like that's my that is definitely one of my favorite scenes.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

I'm still mad that they put Lamar Rucker in that wig. Um, I'm just still mad about it. He was only in the movie for a little total of five minutes. Right. But when they call Lamar, I was like, God, get this man, get this fine man out this wig. Okay, I can't take it. But when they when he said, My baby brother, David Ruffin,

Overmanaging Kills Other People’s Gifts

SPEAKER_02 48:40

came and shut it down.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

That shut it down. Like it's it's a rap. And you knew immediately, you knew immediately this is your guy. Yeah, and and so that, and so he I think that uh when you look at this uh idea of his talent and under a certain type of leadership, um, you know, uh mostly like with Otis. And it's like, okay, the character it takes for somebody with that much talent to submit to leadership is so critical. So it's like you know, it his that is that was his gift. His gift was to to to to be the guy, and then sometimes that is what the gift is, is for you to be the person. But it yeah, but you as the person, I think this is where we get this is where we get uh confused. Just because you're highly talented does not mean you're ready to lead. And what what what what David Ruffin was thinking, oh, I'm the voice, I'm the leader. I y'all, we need to do what I say. Yeah, and it's like, hold on, bruh, that ain't how this works, because you're gonna lead us into the fire. Uh it's not we we not for to survive under your leadership. I'm David Ruffin and these and these are the temptations like nah he was about to get beat down that night. That I mean he he he was honestly, and so this is where we have to be very um both sides have to develop in what they are uh built to do, right? Um Otis didn't develop in his leadership style, as as we've been talking about, and not overmanage stuff and not overmanage people. Yeah, and David had to be had to develop in his character to submit to leadership. And I think that we've got uh especially you think of the world we're in now, you know, under in this influencer culture where we've got people who have this uh influencing talent for whatever it is that they do, yeah, that also want to prop themselves up as a leader in certain ways. Yeah, uh but it it it but it's not really what you should be doing. You you need to submit to something so that your talent can go as far as it can, but you need to submit to something that is going to support your talent, yes, but not feel like your talent's gonna take over that because that's not talent does not lead. Um, you can't lead with talent. And uh, and I think at the same time, Otis, I think it would have been as hard, I think it would have been much harder for Otis to lead if he had the talent of David Ruffin.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

You know what I'm saying? So like there really is a a beauty to what a team can be if you if you all are willing to submit to the vision of what's there and not your own desire for you, you know what I'm saying? And that that was that was really where it started to break down. Um, like you were you were saying earlier, David Ruffin was just happy to be part of the group, yeah. And he was good, yeah. And then somebody somebody said David, the show sign.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

My girl, my girl came, but I mean, it's undeniable based off of what we saw in the movie, yeah, right? That before David Ruffin led a song, yeah, yeah, it was just a matter of 10. Yeah, the highest they got was like 76 on the charts. And you know what I'm saying? David Ruffin came with that my girl, yeah, okay, and that I've got sunshine, but it was also it was him, but it was also the song.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Let's let's be like, Eddie could have led that song and we would have been fine.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

The song was gonna the the song, you know. I think Smoky finally got beat winning formula, okay. Also, I thought all the songs were good. I was like, hey, you know, yeah, it was a bop, but I guess, but I feel like you know, they were they were, I think the crowds were just a little bopped out, everybody was passing out bops, you know, like you had to really have something special. And my girl was that she was that one, yes, she she was that one, right? But I think David Ruffin took that as not the song made the difference, I made the difference. Exactly, exactly, right? And then David started leading more of the song, yep, right? But you know what I'm saying, and when you really look at it, David really kind of took Paul's spot as that middle voice. Yes, yes, right. He he wasn't as strong as Paul, but his voice was a little bit more melodic, yeah. And so I think the song started getting written for David. So those parts where Paul would have been in the front, you know what I'm saying? Because I think when they invited Paul and Eddie in the group, it was these are our front men. Yes, this is the front man. That's right. Okay, so I think that's probably part of the reason that Al got a little bitter because for a while was Al was the front man, yeah. And then y'all bring in Paul and Eddie, and we said Al. Yeah, yeah. When Al left, we was like, bye. You right here drinking and tight.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

I love Paul's voice. I personally loved Paul's voice. I and I and I still think like to me, he's they neck and neck, he and Devra Ruffin. Paul has a bad voice now, yeah. Um and I I really enjoy everything he did.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Yeah, yeah, but the song started getting written for David. Correct, right? You get what I'm saying? And so I also think, you know, milk Paul, when Paul was drinking that milk, you know what I'm saying? He was strong. You know, milk makes bones strong. When he got on that, on that lickle, okay, he became a different Paul. He became but yeah, totally different Paul. You know what I'm saying? And and everybody, let me tell you something. I remember when I was in divinity school, pastoral care classes were like my thing. I I could, if I could have taken only pastoral care classes throughout my time there, I would have done that. I love pastoral care. And I remember in one of my classes, we read this book. I think it's called Not Another Drop. I'll find the name of it, but it talks about how with alcohol, you don't know which drink will make you an alcoholic. Like you, and every time you take a drink, you are taking a gamble that this will be the one. And for some, and it talked about the book talked about how there were some older women who had never had a drink in their life, took one drink and it sent them over the edge,

David Ruffin And When Talent Leads

SPEAKER_02 55:40

right? Or an alcoholic who, you know, drank their whole life, decided to stop drinking the moment they came back and drank, right? Like that took them over the edge. Like, yeah, you don't know which drink for you, and everybody has a different number. Yeah. And I personally don't play Russian roulette, right? But yeah, but you know, I think for Paul, because in the beginning of the movie, you have to know there are characters in the Bible where the Lord came down from the heavens and said, Hey, don't drink nothing, don't cut his hair, right with Samson, right with John. It was like, hey, you know, I think it's so interesting that with John the Baptist, the Lord was so intentional about what his father was saying, right? Because what you're about to birth in the earth, his voice is what I'm gonna use. And you can't be out here talking reckless over his life, right? And and you surely finna name him something I ain't gonna name him. We're gonna name him what I want to name him, right? And so, like there are just instructions over your life. And I think Paul, his gift, and who he was set up to be, there were instructions. You know, don't do what everybody else is doing. Yep, you can't live how everybody else is living. You don't have the freedom, yeah, right. Everybody talks about like, oh no, we got liberty, we can do what we want to do, baby. You better consult with the Lord about your call, your assignment, your anointing because it will kill you. It is not just about what's right, what's wrong. It is about that, but it's also about the Lord knows, right, who he created you to be. He has the manual, right? And if you consult with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will let you know why you cannot, you can't play with it. And so, Paul, we're going on these tour buses, right, and everybody else is drinking, right? And and for a while he had that thermos and he had his milk, right? And the moment he touched alcohol, yeah, you get what I'm saying, right? Like, you're you don't have the same number that everyone else around you have. That's you don't have the same tolerance. Your your anointing and what's on your life can't take it. That's good. It can't go down that road. You know, there are some people who you know you look at and they, you know, especially people that you be like, oh man, you know, they ain't living right, they ain't doing right, and da-da-da-da-da. But the moment they get saved, they come and outrun everybody. Yeah. Right? They they they out here, they out here like, you know, now all of a sudden, you know, you a super profit. But you know, and everybody, but but you don't know what's in their manual. But you better know what's in yours. Got to know what's in yours. So don't spend too much time judging what other people got going on because the Lord has their manual and he knows what will get them back in line. Yes, he knows what will bring them back to him because he's our father, right? But you have to know your manual. It's so important. It's so important. And you know, Paul, that story, when I was re-watching it, I thought.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

That's the most tragic part. It's tragic. It's tragic. And it's it's really interesting because as you're talking, I'm sitting here, like, you know, this is obviously speculation, but imagine if Paul didn't go down the alcoholic road. Yeah, when David went down his road, Paul could have stepped back up.

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

You know what I'm saying? He would have had, he would have, he would have been ready to step back into where he where he was. My lord. But because he he didn't, and he fell to, he fell down a road, they're now both of their folks is gone. And and they they have to they have to as a group grieve that um and manage that conflict. Yeah, like that those, and so like as as we get like, you know, you kind of have this um this trajectory of of of fame and success, and they're living their dreams, and then it catches up to them, yeah, it catches up to them each individually, right? I mean, with even Otis, he cheated on his brother he cheated on his wife, right?

SPEAKER_02 59:54

And let me tell you something. I have so much respect for Josephine. Okay, Josephine said, I'm not finna stick around for this time foolery. No, oh no, oh no, you might be, you know, the Otis Williams, but I no, no, no, no. Here go your son, all right. The son, oh my goodness, me and my sister. Oh, y'all got that. Listen, why are you always on the road?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

I can't, I can't. That whole scene is like we couldn't do that one more time. We couldn't take doing one more take. We needed another take. We needed another take on that. Like, that was not that was so funny to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

I could pull Lamont because you know, oh yeah. Again, rewatching the movie, I had forgotten. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

That was that was that was that was actually that was actually one of the scenes where like, oh crap, we forgot about this. Let's explain what's gonna happen. Like, oh dang, Rue. Y'all over here traumatizing the young man. Hey, listen, he learned from it. It's important to expose kids to real life, but um uh I but it in the context of your own own home with your parents, I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

But anyway, I think it's important. We was watching a movie when we was young, nobody explained nothing to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

And that's the thing, and I grew up I grew up in a house like that. Like I listen, I watched it. My daddy made us watch a time to kill when I was 10 years old. Okay, and so I I'm not, and we watched roots when before I was eight. So I'm not this is this is kind of how I was raised. We sit there, watch it, we talk about it, you know. I seen Kitakute get his leg cut off, you know, when I was seven, you know what I'm saying? I I saw it, and I, you know, that's just anyway. So it was it was it was it was just how I grew up. You know, um, but we walked through that kind of stuff. So I thought it was important, but that I did forget about that part. I was like, oh shoot.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

You know what? Nobody ever explained the color purple to me. You see, that that movie has so many adult things. You've got to explain. I'm just watching it like I have some questions. Yeah, you've got to give me a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Miss Ophia, why is she at the in the jail? I'm so confused. You got you gotta explain things like that. Yes, you really do. Yeah, the Lamont, yeah. I I forgot, I think I thought his mom was gonna die. And I think it was like, okay, but his yeah, but that the that that was just a different, that's a different kind of tragedy.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

You know, I thought about like, you know, if you because I really do think that Otis loved Josephine, right? Oh, for sure. And she loved him. I think they both loved each other the whole way through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. But when they when they went on the road, he had, he, you know, he was just like, all he said was, you know, us going on tour meant being away from our families. You have set no protections, you have no plan. Yeah, you have no plan to stay faithful. We you are depending on your own strength that you're gonna be away from your family on the road with all these female groups, away from your wife for months, yep, right, and that you're gonna be okay. Yeah, you have no plan, right? And and that is the moment where the enemy, because you haven't thought through what you're actually about to do, y'all so focused on the temptations, so focused on we finally blowing up, we finally hit the charts, right? You're not watching that Paul switched from milk to alcohol, you're not watching that David Ruffin is now in different seats with different women and he's back here playing cards all day, right? He's getting wilder and wilder. Yep, right. You're not watching, you're not watching because y'all are just focused on what you're gaining, but you're not focused on what you're about to lose. And when they got off that bus, and I and you realize that Otis done jacked his marriage up, and you see Josephine throughout the movie, she is she thinking it through, she's pondering how much am I gonna give up for the temptations? Man, and she wasn't going, she was not going. Nah, and you know, I really I really paired her against Paul's wife, yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, because Josephine was growing more and more independent. Josephine was like, Oh no, you're not gonna play me. Yeah, okay, because I can go, I can go have me a good life, okay, and then and I'ma love you, but I'm gonna I'm not gonna be a part, I'm not gonna take part in you dismissing me. That's right, right? But I watched Paul's wife like take on a more helpless position. Yeah, yeah. You know, yeah and and wanting to be there for him, but growing more and more unsure how to do that and endangering herself in the process. That's it, yeah. You know, and I listen, I'm for marriage. Yeah, that's what everybody should know. Jaquita is for marriage, I'm an advocate for marriage. I believe marriage is a beautiful covenant before God. But when marriage gets dangerous, when when my life gets in danger, yeah, because when Paul was singing and then she went and he was grabbing and shoving and yeah, that's true. Yeah.

unknown 1:05:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

Like I'm not gonna be a casualty because y'all, y'all are not preparing for the moments.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

It's and and I it's you have to understand that those moments are coming. Like, I think I think no, nobody, nobody gets exempt on your journey from moments like that. Now, what the moment actually is is gonna be different for everybody. But like nobody, you don't get exempt from moments of testing. Um and you you've gotta be prepared for that test. You don't get, you know, and not to be cliche, but you don't get, you don't get um,

Paul’s Alcoholism And Knowing Your Manual

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

you don't get exempt from moments of temptation, which I think is really interesting. You know, um just the just the the the nature of who they uh uh decided to become, right? In the name temptations, they all uh were succumbing to their own temptation. You know what I'm saying? Uh even artists, all of them. And they and so you have to understand, like in your pursuit of whatever you're pursuing, you're going to be faced with things that tempt you.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

And that are gonna test you. That's just what it is. Yeah. So to what you were saying earlier, know your manual, understand what makes you tick, what turns you on and off, what is going to, you know, put you in a in a in a certain headspace, what's gonna what's gonna help, what's gonna make you make certain decisions, what's gonna, you know, set you off. You need to understand that about you and then have a understand that something's going to trigger you at some point, yeah, and know what you're going to do when that happens, so you don't lose everything you're pursuing. And because so many people do, because we don't know our manual, and we allow things to get to us, and and you can't, you're you're not always guaranteed, you're not guaranteed a second chance. Not guaranteed, you know. The grace of God prevails, but you're not guaranteed a second chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

Sometimes your second chance is gonna have to be remodeled, it might not be you back in the temptations, and that's what was so yeah, that's what was so distressing about Paul's story, yeah, is because he was he was fighting for his chance back in, but you know, he he lost hope in that moment, and it was it was just that was just a really that was that was tough. That was a tough scene. I'm pretty sure 10-year-old Jaquita was like, all right, yeah, right. That's a lot for me to take.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

In all honesty, that was when that's when our son was like, yeah, I'm good. Like I'm I'm kind of I don't really want to finish this. Like, because that that's and I get that. It's like that was tough, man. And just like understanding what drives people to that moment where where you you have like you said, you've lost hope. There's no like everything I've ever wanted, I can't get back.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

And again, it's like Otis managing those moments. Where is blue? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Blue was blue was so pastoral, right? In every hard moment, blue was the one taking care of the people. That's a great point, right? Otis was much more, sorry, I want to use the church term, but he was much more apostolic. Like for sure. We're setting up the systems, we setting them up. This is the way it's gonna go, this is the way it's gonna flow, and this is how we need to do it. This is structure, right? But blue was the person behind the scenes at every moment taking, and he never, I feel like blue never really, according to the movie, yeah, never got to get fully developed in that in a way that could have been really, really beneficial in those moments because blue took care of people.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

I I think that's so, and it's so interesting. So did his mama, yeah. You know, that was kind of his mom's character. She was the group mother.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

At the end of the movie, I would have said right there, yeah, Mama, go get them short ribs. Yeah, don't get going to take them short ribs. We gotta have the short ribs. You're right. We gotta have those. Okay, there's a reason why they was always at mama rose house. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

Mama Rose threw down.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

She she would know that food was good. And he so he he came from that. He came from somebody who takes care of people and you know, loves them and loves them through stuff and like understands, you know, and and is is like so he had that, he had that natural gift. I think you make such a good point that it wasn't, he it didn't, it wasn't developed um in the way that it could have been.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

As a leader, it is so important that you recognize the gifts of people, and sometimes we don't recognize them when their gift doesn't look like ours. Absolutely. And we try to form and shape them to be like us. Yep. Right? And you are you don't know what your organization is missing because you won't allow that person to operate at full capacity. Yes. Uh, and also, sorry, let them be the expert at it. Don't don't manage somebody else's genius. That's that's good. It's not your genius, right? And and and a great late, a great leader will name the genius for you and say, hey, this is you, this is you. Yep. This is this is what you have that we need, right? And I need you, I want you to go and I want you to soar in it because that's not my genius. Ain't nothing worse than a leader who thinks they have all the geniuses and try to overmanage yours. That's right. It's gonna shut it. You shut your people down. Yeah, you shut your people down. The best sometimes some of the best parts of leadership are the moments when I step back one thousand and allow them to flourish.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

The key to that is having the right people on your team. Yes, that's that that that is that is the key to being able and not that's the key to not even being tempted to overmanage. You gotta have the right people in the right place at the right time, yeah. And and so it can be really hard when you start to see things that just aren't fitting. So, like, even with David Ruffin, at some point, he just he honestly he became a solo artist in the group, and that doesn't work. Yeah, you can't do that. So, and when he was doing it, he was the only one on that page. Even Eddie, we really talk about Eddie for real, but like even Eddie wasn't that way. He knew he had a voice, but David put that in his mind. Yeah, we're the voices, we're the voices, right? And he he really wasn't, excuse me, he really wasn't thinking that way. So honestly, there's an argument, maybe, to be made that there's a point David should have probably gone solo early and left the group. Because he wasn't he wasn't a fit for the group anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

I think he was a fit for the group. I think it it was his it was his wounds that were leading, not his gift. And I think if David had gone solo, we would have seen it would have been, which he did at some point, right? Like, because he he had to still make money when he got kicked out of the group. But I think that if he had had just a purely solo career, like I think his downfall would have been even even more accelerated.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:50

I agree with that. I'm saying though, from the perspective of the group for the temptations, he probably should have got fired earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Before it got to that point. I do want to talk about Eddie though, because I battled with Eddie because I was like, is Eddie an enabler? Right, because Eddie was uh he was in support of maintaining their status um while they were in wounded places. Yeah. Right. And he was, you know, with Paul when he was, when he was, you know, at one point in my life when I heard Eddie say we gotta watch Paul around the clock 24 off the bottle, you know, take shifts, make sure he done go back. At one point in my life, I was like, Yeah, that's noble. Yeah. At another point in my life, I was like, absolutely. That ain't my responsibility. Paul is a grown man, right? He's gonna stay in this treatment program. Yeah, that's Paul's gonna do. You're gonna stay in the treatment program, and these people who get paid to watch you around the clock. Yeah, I'm gonna come visit. Yeah, I might even come, you know, three, four times a week. Be like, I can't come today, but I'm gonna be there tomorrow, bro. Okay, no, seriously, and I'm praying for you nightly, yeah. Nightly, right? But I think like Eddie was unwilling to force people to grow because and I think for different reasons, right? For David, he was always afraid I'm not gonna be able to make it without them, right? Like he had uh what's it called? Attachments, uh trauma bonds, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Like he was like, I'm not gonna make it if Paul's not here. I'm not gonna, I can't make it without David. We're not we're not gonna make it without David. Very fear-based decision making. Whereas Otis was like, I done seen them coming, I didn't see them go. I didn't see them coming. Okay, the organization can survive the loss of anybody. Okay, except the only time Otis was willing to stop business because somebody was hurt was Blue. When Blue got shot, he was like, Hey, you know, we coming up off the road. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:02

But but but that shows to your point that that relationship and that kind of first to second relations like, hey, look, because let's be real, we all got those people that's like, hey, I can't do it without them. Like I I need them. So if y'all, if you want me, you gotta get them. Like, listen, that's just it's just what it is, and it ain't everybody, it ain't everybody. If I got to get rid of some folk, these is who I'm getting rid of, but I'm keeping this, I'm keeping them.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Because, and it's not just because of who can do the work, right? Blue was a voice, he was he was a great voice, right? But he wasn't a lead, he wasn't one of the leads, because you know, ain't really a group that let the bass be the lead, no, right, all the time, you know. But but but for Otis, Blue was everything, yeah. Right, like he was this is this is my foundation. Like, I can't I can't do this without Blue. I can't do this without Blue, right? And so, which is why Blue got Smokey and uh Barry at the funeral. That's it. Nobody else got a full funeral. That's it. But blue, we was out there crying, holding on to mama, okay. We got the whole shebang. Um, but I I think it's just so interesting that Eddie was in in every time Eddie himself was not quote unquote problematic, right? We there was no, we didn't watch a downfall of Eddie. Right, right. As far as himself, he was pretty much middle of the road. It was who he attached himself to and why. Right? Like he he had trauma bonds. Yeah, he was, hey, I, you know, it's me and Paul. I'm not gonna let you throw Paul out the group. I can't do you you if if you kick Paul out, I'm not going on. Right. And so now we got Paul up here drunk. Uh blue, and then we got Richard having to sing in the back. Okay. Right. And so, and and Eddie was so tied to the people who were failing. Right. And not in a way, not in a way that blue would have been, which would have been pastoral, which would have been restorative, right? It was, I can't survive. I don't think we're gonna make it without these people. Yeah. Because he couldn't have he couldn't imagine a world where he didn't have these things, these people. And I think it was it was less about the people and more about the familiarity. 100%. Right, right. Eddie loved familiarity. And those are the people that will keep your organization stuck. Man, look. We can't change the way we do things because that's gonna hurt so-and-so. Right? And so they keep you from making the hard decisions, yeah. Or they resent you when you make hard decisions, and they can't when when the tide shift or when the organization makes a big shift, they can't move with the with the tide.

Eddie’s Loyalty Trap And Hard Calls

SPEAKER_02 1:18:10

They can't, they can't flow with the new the new direction of the organization, right? They don't see the new strategic plan. They'll they're they're still sitting there salty because what was wrong with the way we used to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

And well, oftentimes, again, Eddie had a talent and will hold you some if you allow him to can hold you hostage and and say, okay, if that if this don't happen, I'm gone. And as a leader, you sometimes you have to let them go. Let him leave. And and so, you know, there was that you can't, you don't get to make demands um that are what when you when you aren't taking the full, when you're not looking at the full picture. And even though you might have a lot to offer, and that can be really hard as the as a leader who has to make difficult decisions, you can never allow anybody to hold you, hold the best decision hostage because of what they bring to the table. No.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:09

Because if you think an organization is going to stay stuck in order to keep you, oh you you an organization is a is it is a living, moving, breathing. It's an organism. It is this, it is it doesn't it will move on without you. Guess what? They found another man. We don't know his name. They never gave that man's name. Was it Lenny? That man was huh? Was it Lenny? Why did that just come to me? I I don't know. Because they never said it in the movie. Maybe not. They barely even showed him on the camera. You're right. Like, because I remember they were in the studio. I was like, who's singing the high note? Yeah, and then they finally panned, they didn't they didn't pan over while he was singing, they finally panned over when they were showing the whole room at the end. Who is that? But he s he's singing the high notes. Yeah, he was singing. He holding down the he holding down Eddie Charts. Because you aren't the only one. If you don't think for one moment that the or that that, first of all, this organization is not it's not loyal. No, it can't be. It's loyal to it, it is loyal to it, yeah. And when it when it assesses the risk versus the benefit, right? And and depending on the way that scale balances, it will boot you out for its own survival. Right? No, no one is bigger than the group, right? And what we'll do is we'll put you in a past member category, yeah, and we'll go and get three other members. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:41

That's what a quickness. That's what, and that's and and I think honestly, the kind of circling back to what we were talking about at the beginning, it's what kept the legacy alive. When you talk about 28 different members, you don't get that without putting the group first. The brand, the group, the legacy of the temptations is still alive today. And yeah, we all know the original five. Who really weren't the original five? But we know the five that came to the top.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:12

Yeah. Okay, so we know then the third of September.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:18

Yeah, we love Dennis. Yeah, Dennis. Dennis was truly an odd, like, he was really number six. I mean, he really was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's number six.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:27

Richard came to the wrong thing. Richard Richard came in. You know, the rest of them who's that we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

We don't know them. Well, we don't. I mean, they people they're known, but we don't know them. Um, and I think understanding that the life of something, the life of something is not dependent on specific people. Yeah. That that is that is that is something we must unlearn. It's not dependent on specific people. And the minute it is, it loses its life.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:00

And even as the leader, even as the leader depending on you, it's not you need to be building things that can outlast you.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:08

100%. Because if you don't, it won't, if, if it's dependent on a person, it won't last. Because people don't last. We see it all the time. You got limits. You got limits

Building A Legacy That Outlasts People

SPEAKER_01 1:22:20

capacity. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if it's just life and death, hey, you know, we ain't always gonna be here. So it's like, you know, if if the thing that you are leading can't survive without you, when you go, whether physically, you know, you just you aren't here on this earth or you go somewhere else, if it goes with you, then it really wasn't, it it never had a life of its own. Um, it had you. And that is that's dangerous. We see and we see that in a lot of things, whether it's organizations, churches, you know, companies, whatever. We see that. It's like you have these great leaders who are dynamic and all this stuff, but you but they can't, they're not, they're not the organ, the the company, um, the church, the the whatever is on the brink of of dying because that leader is starting to decline.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:16

Um, and you and you see that, and you can see that playing itself out. But the hard thing, it's hard to do it because you got to make a lot of hard decisions along the way, and you have to put yourself in the background, and you as the leader don't need to be the front man um of what it is that's going on so that the thing can last. Now, everything's not meant to last. Yeah, that's okay. But if it is meant to last, then those are some steps that we have to take um in the middle of the journey. Make the hard choice. Don't you can't let anybody sabotage the process and the progress of the whole organization. You can't be held hostage. You gotta take you gotta you gotta cut people off when it's time to cut them off. Um you you you know, you have to do all that. You have to make, you have to take risks and um let go of things that you thought were gonna bring you success so that you could get somewhere else. Those are all things that have to be done in the middle of the journey before you know what the outcome is gonna be. And that's that's a that's that's how a leader has to be wired. Um and if you're in a position where you're doing things like that, just know that what you're doing is really hard and what you're doing is not is really rare. Like it's not something that most people are willing to do. But if you're willing to do it, you're also putting yourself in a position to get outcomes most people don't get.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:46

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:49

Yeah, yeah. Okay, chat. That was that was, yeah. I think I think we did okay for this long movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:00

Listen, uh, because producer Joy was like, it's gonna take us, you know, it's gonna take us two episodes, and we were like, nah, we about to get into it. We can do it. We can do it. We about to get it. It's a little longer, but I think it I think it's stacked. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:14

Yeah, I think it's stacked.

Wrap Up And Keep Unlearning

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

So I think I think it's stacked. And um, it it's it really is a great movie. So uh, all right, guys. So we are we're done. That was that that we're done. So we will um we will we hope you continue to follow us. Like, share, subscribe. We really hope you're enjoying the summer um movie series, and come back next week for the next movie. And until then, let's keep unlearning together so that we can experience more freedom. Peace. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:50

Thank you once again for listening to the Unlearned Podcast. We would love to hear your comments and your feedback about the episode. Feel free to follow us on Facebook and Instagram, and to let us know what you think. We're looking forward to the next time when we are able to unlearn together to move forward towards freedom. See you then.